Kakimori Kazutoshi
The Kakure, Holy Places, Saint Ignatius & Preparing for Death

Gwyn McClelland

[...] Again, spirituality has a connection, I think, but, the Naru Island environment, the shape of it, such as the sea, hills, mountains were, I’m sure, important for your ancestors but, do you have an opinion about these things?

Kakimori Kazutoshi

Yes, right. Really, ah, now, when you see it, it is like… In the past, where the Senpuku Kirishitan opened up villages it was, those places were before […], Even for Naru Island those people came across in the nineteenth century from Sotome to the Gotō but, yes, when they came across, already the good places had been taken and were being used by the people who lived here previously. The previous people, who had lived here before. And, coming in, when they had come, they settled the places that were not already lived in, they had to cultivate, and clear those areas.

Gwyn McClelland

Yes, I see [...]

Kakimori Kazutoshi

So [those places] were especially wild places, in the environment [or natural state], you see. Really, there were steep hills and when they went and understood them, those hills, they opened them up by piling up stone walls, and making narrow vegetable fields, bit by bit developing the fields, mainly growing sweet potato etc., mmm, that was the way they lived, I think, anyway.

So, when we see them now [from another angle], they are instead, the opposite you see, in those places where the natural environment is truly amazing, you see. So, in those places where the ah, Senpuku Kirishitan villages were, the nature is still very much alive […]

Gwyn McClelland

Right.

Kakimori Kazutoshi

Therefore, put together with the natural world, that life in nature, in those places where those people lived in their villages, and then, ah, there are various Kirishitan relics and so then you can experience those things there. Experiencing them completely within your own skin, when you feel it it is even more, a spiritual kind of thing. I really think it is like it is palpable. So, the natural environment is important, I think. The keyword is: "nature." And then, in nature, there is faith, and [they were] the place where they lived by faith, you see.

Gwyn McClelland

Yes.

Kakimori Kazutoshi

And so that kind of thing, relatively these places where you stop, are really for me now, the World Heritage sites – there are a lot of them I guess, [World Heritage sites] but, really, in these places as well, eventually really there is a necessity for the World Heritage sites to be expanded to more sites, I think.

Gwyn McClelland

Yes...

Kakimori Kazutoshi

Anyhow, in this case, they have the possibility of expanding the sites even by a little, according to the World Heritage committee. So, if that is an eventuality, I think it would be great. I hold that hope.

Gwyn McClelland

Now there are twelve, twelve?

Kakimori Kazutoshi

Twelve or thirteen? So, the Sempuku related sites, within the Gotō area there is so much history, but within the Sempuku relevant sites there is not even one Kakure Kirishitan village that has been included, you see.

Gwyn McClelland

Right, yes.

Kakimori Kazutoshi

Yes, and so, in relation to that, if they could include a little more of those places like the one you saw today: When you see [a place like that], there are so many memories from the [Hidden Christian] age that remain there, of the area, so including that kind of place.

Gwyn McClelland

Yes, yes, yes.

Kakimori Kazutoshi

It really has to be looked at again. I wholeheartedly think so!

Gwyn McClelland

I see.

Gwyn McClelland

For example, ah, of rocks and trees and earth, err, are there important places, or historic and important places ah, that arise in your mind? That, those kind of, err, old, or yes, depending upon the event, where something happened?

Kakimori Kazutoshi

Ah, [you mean] the Sempuku Kirishitan places, don't you. There are a lot!

Gwyn McClelland

Sempuku Kirishitan... [inaudible] There are a lot of them?

Kakimori Kazutoshi

Yes, ah, in what I gave you (what do I say [...]) in the pamphlet that I gave you it was written and, well, ah, where the instructions about the orashio (prayers) were given, in the caves and so on […] And as well, the old trees and the old Sempuku period graves, and so on.

Gwyn McClelland

Right, I see.

Kakimori Kazutoshi

The places where the baptismal water was taken from for baptism is, a mysterious places on the coast where water comes out, like that, or what we say “earth spirits/gods”, and yes, in every likelihood, yes, the places where the Catholic saints were enshrined are also there. And as well what we saw today, another one, I, that “San-mi-ittai no shima” (Trinity island) I called it, “Yagami-kojima” it is but, that is too, in actuality, there, on the surface, it [recalls], ah, something like, yes, [...] Ebisu-san, Ebisu-san the sea god. It is called Ebisu, ah...

Gwyn McClelland

Doesn't Ebisu-san mean something about whales?

Kakimori Kazutoshi

Maybe it is Hinduism. Ebisu, Ebisu, ah, it is the God of wealth, I think, in Japan. And so, it enshrines Ebisu on the surface [front-side] of it, right. However, over there there was such an amazing person that with Yagami-kojima, they copied and changed it, they say, anyway. On the surface it is Ebisu-san but what was the original I wonder [...] Yes, it is likely that someone enshrined a Catholic saint there.

Gwyn McClelland

Yes.

Kakimori Kazutoshi

And especially today where you went – Yagami-kojima [a nearby island] was [where] one of the traditional Japanese things called ni-jū-sanyamachi [was celebrated]. We have that kind of thing. And to explain it…

Gwyn McClelland

Ni-jū-san…

Kakimori Kazutoshi

San-ya-machi

Gwyn McClelland

E, emachi…

Kakimori Kazutoshi

San-ya-machi.

Gwyn McClelland

San-ya-machi.

Kakimori Kazutoshi

Wait. The thing of "waiting."

Gwyn McClelland

Sorry!

Kakimori Kazutoshi

23 nights. Waiting. For 23 nights. This was the old calendar’s 23rd January until 23rd May and October 23rd, ah, it was September I think. In those days, the old calendar, when the moon took the longest to come out.

Gwyn McClelland

Oh, so if you go there…

Kakimori Kazutoshi

The moon is slow to come out. In the middle of the night, the moon comes out.

Gwyn McClelland

Right, the slowest!

Kakimori Kazutoshi

Late to come out. At the time, while waiting for the moon to come out, the village people by tradition would all gather, in order to wait. While they were idly talking, they would take one of those foods and while eating, and then at 8pm when the moon came out, as a Japanese tradition, the holy-kannon, Kannon-sama they would ask for favours, as per the Japanese tradition they did. And, the Kirishitan did not copy this, but it would act as camouflage for, for their watching the moon, tsukimi, watching for the moon to come out. They waited [to pray to] Ignatius Loyola, they called Innassho-sama.

Gwyn McClelland

Ah, Saint Ignatius.

Kakimori Kazutoshi

Innasho-sama. They prayed to Ignatius-sama – Innashio-sama, they would say.

Gwyn McClelland

Indeed.

Kakimori Kazutoshi

The god of the moon, at that time, they prayed to Innasho-sama, sending their prayers up, asking for the things they needed, from them to God.

Gwyn McClelland

I see.

Kakimori Kazutoshi

It was about wishing for the things they need, that is what it came to be. It was called Ni-jū-sanyamachi and in that Kirishitan cave, like today, inside the Sempuku Kirishitan cave, (I think I’ve written about this too, but) well, its that kind of thing, familiarly that was the way they felt about it, and perhaps over there they also enshrined Innasho-sama at that Yagami-kojima I think, but we don’t know that for sure.

However, it was some kind of saint, like Ignatius-sama, or Bastian, no not Bastian-sama, someone, yes, John the Baptist.

[brief edit]

Kakimori Kazutoshi

John the Baptist.

Gwyn McClelland

Oh, John. The baptist.

Kakimori Kazutoshi

Yes, yes, yes. That is I wonder what kind of meaning it had for the Kirishitan here [...] Yes, well, there is a possibility that they had enshrined someone like that. So, without fail the Kakure Kirishitan had a front and a back, and the front was a Buddhist type of thing.

Gwyn McClelland

Yes.

Kakimori Kazutoshi

However, what was hidden behind this differed, after all. It was not at all a mixed religion, the real intention was for Christianity to be properly practiced, even if there were Buddhist elements or Shinto elements persistently used as camouflage. So, an average, average person when they see it, they think this “ah, Kakure Kirishitan: on the one hand they go to the Shrine or to the temple and pay respects”, and on the other they have the misunderstanding that, Christianity [unclear], they mix religions, but that is not the case.

Gwyn McClelland

It is not the case.

Kakimori Kazutoshi

No, completely different. I clearly understood that when I came here. Yes, that’s right.

[edit: pause]

Gwyn McClelland

Mr. Kakimori, or for your family or relatives, ahh, I am sure you have many things you’ve understood, but what kind of things stick in your mind, what is important about things you have understood about, Kakure Kirishitan experiences?

Kakimori Kazutoshi

Ah, do you mean when I first came here? I interviewed my family about various things. What kind of shape did the family take [do you mean]…?

Gwyn McClelland

Sure.

Kakimori Kazutoshi

They are all in here but, well, my father…

Gwyn McClelland

Ah, are they are generally written about in here?⋆

Kakimori Kazutoshi

Yes, they are written down.

Gwyn McClelland

Then I will read about them properly. From now…

Kakimori Kazutoshi

And it was my grandfather, my mother’s grandfather that was the Kakure mizukata (baptizer) for this area. For Kakure Kirishitan.

Gwyn McClelland

Was your mother the mizukata?

Kakimori Kazutoshi

My mother's mother's father was.

Gwyn McClelland

Mother, oh, sorry, your mother's grandfather. I see.

Kakimori Kazutoshi

My own grandfather. He was what was called by the Kakure Kirishitan the mizukata, and the Kakure had, without fail, three person organization, you see. The chōkata (Headman or Keeper of the Book), who was the person who wrote the calendar, they wrote it every year in the old days – the Daily (taiyoureki) … fixed up into the Daily calendar.

Gwyn McClelland

Tai...

Kakimori Kazutoshi

They adjusted the Solar calendar to be a Lunar Calendar

Gwyn McClelland

A lunar calendar, right.

Kakimori Kazutoshi

The old months, you probably don't know – they called it the motoreki (old calendar) – and they fitted in with the months of the calendar in a Japanese style calendar. In Japan in the old days, like the Edo-jidai (Edo period). And they adopted the European one in the Meiji, once we’d entered the Meiji era.

Gwyn McClelland

Right, right, right.

Kakimori Kazutoshi

Like in Europe. Which is where it originated.

Gwyn McClelland

Right, right, Yes, I see.

Kakimori Kazutoshi

Therefore, originally the Kirishitan also used a Solar Calendar, and they had to adjust it to a Lunar Calendar.

Gwyn McClelland

Yes.

Kakimori Kazutoshi

Yes, ah, to fix it up, that kind of work basically was for the chōkata role, and overall, overall, the one mainly responsible was the chōkata. Then, the mizukata would celebrate baptism, and the person called the Shukuro, he was the assisting person for the chōkata and the mizukata.

Gwyn McClelland

Right. Yes.

Kakimori Kazutoshi

Yes, for that and for when they did rituals, they did the preparations, together, the three roles worked on it. Without fail, without celebrating rituals working as three, they could not have done it, you see. There were various rituals plus baptism as well, and funerals as well. Yes, and later, there was Otaiya which was Christmas. The Christmas celebration. And Kanashimi no Agari (The Lifting of the Sadness), which is what they called the Resurrection celebration (Easter).

Gwyn McClelland

Right.

Kakimori Kazutoshi

Yes, yes. In that style they followed the calendar, and it was absolutely central throughout. With the calendar focus, therefore the celebration days (Saint Days) were for the Kirishitan called "Bad days," and then they did not do any needlework, or other work.

Gwyn McClelland

Hmm.

Kakimori Kazutoshi

The celebration days, celebrations, so, like in Europe, isn't it?

Gwyn McClelland

That's right.

Kakimori Kazutoshi

When there is a "Saint Day" there is a holiday, isn’t there? Easter is also a holiday, right? That had come here too. And there was one more called Zezen, ahh. Well, especially what they called a 40 day period of sadness, or in other words, the lead up to the "Resurrection" few months, so 40, how many days [...] That time, that period was called Zezen and ahh, you would miss a meal once or, something like… [unclear] that or, eat no meat or, definitely more than Catholics today, it was seriously "severely" remembered.

Gwyn McClelland

Yes. I see.

Kakimori Kazutoshi

That kind of thing also came over. Nowadays there is nothing like that and Catholics are lenient…

Gwyn McClelland

Previously…

Kakimori Kazutoshi

And, there was that kind of ah, that kind of pay your sacrifice, pa…, pay… Yes, each month. It was that way throughout. Yes, then, that kind of thing, one by one, and another was called "Konchirisan", usually when you are a Catholic, you would go to the priest to confess, confession is available. To redeem your sins, go to the priest and…

Gwyn McClelland

Yes, yes.

Kakimori Kazutoshi

But there was no priest so they could not, you see. By saying the “Konchirisan” they redeemed their sins, by praying orashio. And in that case too, they properly offered up their orashio.

Gwyn McClelland

Was that another person who said the Konchirisan?

Kakimori Kazutoshi

No, the Konchirisan was a prayer (orashio) that they offered up, for their own sins, myself, this redemption, because of this sin, and ahh… when they were mourning, or feeling unhappy and they offered up [unclear], but the most amazing thing I think is for people who were preparing for death, the "saigo no orashio* (last rites) that they could offer up.

When they faced death. Death […]

Gwyn McClelland

Facing death?

Kakimori Kazutoshi

Facing death. People who were about to pass away. Well, it is the most important time isn’t it. Death. Facing up to death, in a good, good [way], how to die, well, this with God, to die well, yes, the substance of that prayer you see. So to speak, how you regret the bad things you have done.

Gwyn McClelland

Yes.

Kakimori Kazutoshi

And, then you pray these things together. Together, when I was young, I did these sins, these bad things I did. And then…

Gwyn McClelland

That kind of custom.

Kakimori Kazutoshi

They always do it. The chōkata, and the three roles together. They would do the last prayers in the face of death. But that was after all, this I did not do well in this transient world and so, how to move on, when I did not have a good life. That is what you basically [pass on to] God. Receive forgiveness and be able to go to Paraiso (Paradise), good, good, that, like that. Faced with death, there is this support. I thought that was fantastic, see.

⋆ [For more information on Kakimori's family, see Gonoi Takashi 五野井隆史, Hidden Kirishitan of Japan Illustrated 潜伏キリシタン図譜. Sempuku Kirishitan Zufu Jikko Iinkai 潜伏キリシタン図譜プロジェクト実行委員会, 2021. https://ndlsearch.ndl.go.jp/books/R100000002-I032606568]